Maureen Holloway Returns: Breast Cancer & Taking the Stand for Jenn Valentyne

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Hi,

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I'm Sarah Burke, and this is the women in media podcast. Today's guest has been on the show before, but with her podcast co host at the time, and we just didn't have enough time to cover all the things that I wanted to speak about regarding her career, and it's a big one. She is one of Canada's most recognizable broadcast voices decades in radio and television, a career built on wit and candor. She had a joint venture in podcasting called Women of ill repute with Wendy mesley. It's also now a sub stack newsletter, which perhaps you subscribe to. She's been open about her experience with breast cancer, and we've got an update that we'll cover today. And more recently, she's been among the women connected to the Jennifer Valentine human rights case involving, course, entertainment not only showing up, but participating and pushing the conversation about women and workplace culture forward. So welcome back to the podcast. Maureen Holloway, how are you? I'm good. Sarah, I would like you to come with me wherever I go. So when people say, what are you up to lately? Sarah, let him know. Yep, agent,

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so the last time that we saw each other, we were eating tacos. You remember this? Yes, yeah. I remember that we were, yeah. We were eating tacos and drinking margaritas, yeah. And a lot has unfolded since then. So right now, what does, what does the day to day look like? What have you been up to? Okay, so, you know, we'll get the cancer thing out of the way without I wish I had 20 years ago. So I just recently had a second mastectomy. You look amazing. Thank you. It's been three weeks, but I'm a quick healer. So just a little background. So I because I don't want to be the poster girl. Nobody wants to be the poster girl for cancer or anything for that, any kind of disease, but here I am. So yeah, 20 years ago, I kind of famously was diagnosed with a rare form of cancer. And by famously, I mean I was very public about it on the radio stations that I was on and so on, had a mastectomy, had chemo, had radiation. It was rare form, and they didn't know much about it. And so everything was up in the air, no prognosis. And after about eight years of going back and having MRIs every year and mammograms every year, which everybody should do,

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go get we squish them. Won't have to do that anymore, they said, You're fine. You're good, but they kept an eye on me. This is Princess Margaret

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Health Center in Toronto last year 2025 they've on my remaining breast the good one, although that's debatable which one is the good one, the reconstructed one, or the one you still have. They found very common ductal carcinoma in situ, the garden variety of cancer that most women who are diagnosed with breast cancer will be diagnosed with, okay, and normally, it would not warrant a radical reaction, but they suggested, and I lobbied for another mastectomy, because at this point, I don't want to deal with this anymore. We're not taking chances, alright? So I had that three weeks ago and and immediately started reconstruction. And so you know, all is good waiting for the pathology, but because it was caught early, and this is all a cautionary tale for women, are like, Yeah, I know, I know, have your mammograms.

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Be vigilant, because if it's caught early, it's not as big a deal. And if you wait, well, you know it can be. I do want to point out something. I've had one in three women are going to be diagnosed with cancer, breast cancer, in their lives. I've had two different kinds. I've taken a bullet for somebody. So you're welcome, right, right. Come on. One in three women is it's it's too common, yeah, too common, yeah. And as to what you know, preventative and what you know, this was Wendy medsley, my, my, my former podcast partner. This was her thing. I mean, she was diagnosed 20 years ago as well, and her thing was like, Okay, enough, pouring money into dealing with it, well, not enough. But shouldn't we also be spearheading res, preventative preventing it? So anyway, there you go. So let me ask you this, because 20 years apart from these two experiences, I think there's been a lot of positive conversation about how women feel about their bodies, right? Like that, conversation has changed a lot. So in thinking about reconstruction and how you want to, you know, handle this out of surgery. Did any of that look different than it did 20 years ago? For you, I'm lucky that I've had phenomenal surgical oncologists and phenomenal cosmetic surgery doctors. The first was Dr John Semple at Women's College, who's now retired, and my current cosmetic, or plastic they still go with plastic surgery is Dr Steven Hoffer at Toronto General. And they are, you know, they're artists. It's funny. I got to tell you the oncologists, when you're meeting with them, they're understandably very serious and, you know, very cautionary. And you know, it's all about.

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A prognosis and survival and treatment, and then the plastic surgery guys come in in their sports cars, and they're like, super hot, and they're like, yeah, what size do you walk?

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Well, like, internally, you know, I'm wondering if the internal sort of dialog had changed in what you want. Well,

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okay, so you know what? My breasts have done their job. They've attracted men. They've fed children. They you know, their working days are over, but that doesn't mean I want to be put out to pasture. I have had a couple of people, women say to me, Oh, so you're gonna go the reconstruction route. Like, I'm not 80, and even if I was, yeah, like, why was still want to be I still want clothes to fit a certain way, yes. And if you don't have reconstruction, if you do nothing, you end up with almost a concave chest, yeah, which is fine. If that's what the way you want, it's exhaust. And also, reconstruction is exhausting, because you put in a tissue expander. Then you go in every few weeks, and they inject saline solution till it gets to the size that you want, and then you go back in, and again, it's major surgery, where they replace the expander with

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an implant. And they also, in my case, and off the case, they do a little work on the other one to make sure everything's symmetrical. They never look like you were born with them, yeah, born with breasts. That would be a hormonal disorder, but they don't look as natural as you think. But I'll tell you in 20 years. And this is not to say that the work, the work I had done 20 years ago was it wasn't up to par. It's just amazing. Like technology and technology and the the pain, the way you deal with pain, and I'm not saying it was a day at the beach, but

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taking women's pain much more seriously. Now they are taking Women's Health well. I mean, obviously they're ahead of the game, but yeah, I've been, I've been treated really well. I continue to be treated really well. And questions like yours come like, what do you want? How do you want to look what can we do for you to make you feel happy? Yeah, feel good. And, and there should not be any hesitation to a failure. Yeah, and it's an individual, you know, decision anyway, it has nothing to do with anyone around you. It's no you. What will you feel good with? Yeah, when you think about it, these Well, what would your husband like? It was like, don't ask me that. Don't even think that. But there was that sort of thinking up until not too long ago. I didn't realize that there were so many, like, different times you kind of go under the knife, essentially. So you're in between those right now. So I had my mistake to be February 12, and I probably won't be done, done like ready and perfect, perfectly healed and so on till the end of the year. Okay? It's a long haul. Yeah, well, I'm so happy that you're doing okay and fine. We'll wait for the pathology, the worst case, and there's no reason they took out a lymph node, and they've done ancillary, sorry, they've done MRIs, but they haven't seen any indication that there's any ancillary involvement. Okay, good, but you never know. So never know. Well, I'm crossing my fingers for you, and you can't keep us posted. Thanks for talking about it too. Because, you know, just that little reminder that one woman might be like, I've been putting that off so well, yeah, yeah, just, you know what? It's not the mammogram is uncomfortable, but forward a second. So do it? You know what's more uncomfortable? What could happen down the line? So, yeah, yeah, exactly. So when you are going through something like this behind the scenes, are you the type of person who's like, I need to be so busy and distracted, so I'm not thinking about this? Or do you stop and slow down? Well, that's, well, my husband will tell you, I don't know how to slow down. Yeah, I was supposedly the first, first two weeks after surgery left, or any surgery, you're supposed to take it easy. I'm not supposed to lift. I'm not supposed to exercise. I mean, you are a normal, a normal exerciser, yeah, yeah. But you know, no upper body, still no upper body. I'm just gonna get all sugary and weak, but

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I don't know how. I mean, five days after surgery, I was cleaning the fireplace. I mean, I didn't mean to. It started with just sweeping the ash. Then I thought, well, and the great weighs like 50 pounds. Yeah. So no, I'm not very good at

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relaxing, but in terms of

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inward thinking about, you know, where, what is this, where, where does this? Yeah, it makes you very emotional. You know, anesthetic is very much when you come out of it, you're very weepy, or I was, yeah, or giggly, depending, or both, yeah, but yeah, it's, it's, and also, I was diagnosed. They originally found the lesions in an MRI last July. Took them six months to Yeah. So during that time,

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there's a lot of you know, I mean, anticipating my kids, who are now in 32 and 27

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They were they were 12, and whatever that is, seven, yeah, we went to broadcast. Don't rely on us for that. They were little. They were young enough. And it was the first time, and it was very traumatizing for them and me being diagnosed again, even though they're grown men, it was triggering. You could tell, yeah, and so yeah, that's, I'm not. I do not mean. And for my husband, it was, you know, he's, he's a really stoic guy. But no, I don't mean to make light of this. It's, it's, it's, it's hard to see it the effect that this kind of that your own mortality has on other people. I mean, you can handle it to a certain extent, yeah. But when you look at your kids or your husband, it wonder how well, obviously, they're not going to be able to manage without me. Well, obviously, have you seen this series? Famous last words? Have I remind me? Tell me more. So, so there's only two episodes out Jane Goodall and Eric Dane, yeah, yeah. We were talking about this on the Jan podcast the other day, and I went and finally checked it out. But I just thought it was such an interesting com like, concept to be faced with your mortality and put a package together that won't be released until you you know, until you're not there anymore. Premise, yeah. And, like, you could hear Jane Goodall like saying those things that she kept out of all interviews up until that last minute, like, where she got a little spicy. I haven't watched the Eric Dane one. I've seen clips from it, and it's, it's extremely moving. The first thing I thought when I saw this concept was like, damn, I wish I thought of that for a podcast. What a great idea. Yeah, it's a great idea. Yeah, but it's risky. Yes, it is risky. And because it could be, it could be maudlin, or it could be terribly, terribly sad. I mean, yeah, you are you also you have to find people who,

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okay, you know the famous line that Oscar Wilde said, you know, this wallpaper is dreadful. One of us has to go. Those were apparently his last

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words,

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which, but it's not the last words, it's the timing. What if he'd said that? And everybody said, Oh, Oscar, that's so funny. Then he just sort of lay there

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for another My point is you have to, in order to do this podcast, sir, you'd have to find people who are dying, they can't just stop, or it has to be kept in the can. That's the premise. Like they signed something saying they won't release it until you die. The concept of that show made me think, like, what would I even say? Right? Like, it got my my wheels turning, so there's still so much. Like, 39 is ridiculous. Like, you should not really have to think. I mean, unless you, of course, you You never know what happened. Well, you never know you could be hit by a truck, but it's 39 you don't really need to think about your mortality unless you're diagnosed with something that you need to think about your life and make sure that you're living it the way that that's true to yourself. You don't really need to, you know, I'm 30 years older. Am I no

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math again,

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I'm 20 something years older than you. And you know, I think when you get to your 60s, I think you realize, well, you're on the third act. I was just gonna ask you about, like the sub stack and sort of connecting it to this conversation, because, you know, what is being left in the sub stack are kind of like internal thoughts that you share, and some, you know, some really fun and interesting and also sad topics that come up in there. Wendy's writing in there too, right? Like both of you are still populating it, we are. So it started when we were doing our podcast, and this is how we met, and because we all sort of started at the same time, and we women of Ill repeat was a podcast and only a podcast, and it was suggested to us that in order to promote it, we write for substack. And Wendy doesn't live in the same Well, she was living in Prince Edward County. Now she's moved to Montreal, so work for us to alternate every week. And the podcast is, is not well, not long gone, but it's been gone for a year or two, yeah, and so, but we've kept we we've got a bigger audience for sub stack than we did for the podcast. Well, both of those things live on past when you're releasing new information, that's what I'm getting at, right? Yeah, those things that you can find in your sub stack or in the podcast episodes that are still you know, there for you to find on your podcast app. That's, you know, part of legacy. I think, yeah, I think, so. So, yes, you're right. It's all available in some you know, we did 98 episodes, 98 interviews with 98 fast go to 100 like, you know, 100

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You're right. What? We're two more.

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I'm kidding. I'm kidding, but yeah. So now we write, and it's funny, because what we started writing about where the like this week our guest is, and then we write about around our guest. And now that we don't have guests anymore, it's a free for all. Wendy tends to be because she's a journalist, once a journalist, always a journalist. She tends to.

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Be a little more political, and, you know, a little more concerned with world affairs. Not that I'm not concerned, but that's, that's her bailiwick. Whereas I tend to, well, I tend to try to find a humorous aspect of everything, including cancer and mortality and all that, but I tend to write, perhaps a little more personally, but they dovetail pretty nicely. So yeah, it's going strong. So outside of that, like, you're still doing humble and Fred here and there, which that is also a podcast, any radio like, tell me what else is going no, I'm a regular on, I'm a monthly regular on humble and Fred, which is a podcast, but more like a morning show, because they Yeah, but they did. They've got a nice hybrid there, and I, what they call it, guest Fred, when Fred's away. So I sit in with humble and nice. I do that is entirely because I love those guys and because the conversation is great. And it's, it's a way of keeping my hand in.

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You know, it's, it's, I am a true guest. I don't get paid. I mean, humble has said a few times, I want to pay you, and I'm like, unless you're paying me a sick take me for a bit of money. Yeah? Or will he helps. He helped me get golf clubs at cost. So, oh yeah, I know jealous much. Yeah, yeah, I am already so, so I do that. What about radio? Sarah, what about radio? Well, I was thinking about this specifically. And you like, you know, Marilyn Dennis just announced retirement from radio, the big R word. And I don't, I was thinking about, like, some of her contemporaries, you being one of them, right? And I was like, I don't remember you ever making, like, a splash about where you might be on that retirement journey if you did it. Well, I didn't. I didn't want to retire with when I was kind of forced into it. But Marilyn, Marilyn, and also, I wasn't at the same place for 40 years. I mean that her legacy is enormous. Not very many people in this industry, anywhere, ever can claim to being in the same place. And at the top of the ratings, we should say she's she's walking away. You know, she's not waiting for any kind of downward slide, not that there necessarily would be. But this is all on her terms. But, but to me, it is a dying industry. It's not quite dead, but it is a dying industry.

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I don't listen to radio. I do wait, I listen, I listen for the news, but I don't listen to radio for the personalities or for the music. There aren't very many out there that do anything for me. And to your point about humble and Fred, it's like when you can find what you used to love about radio and podcasts, that's what you're drawn to. That's a very good point. Also there aren't I was really highly paid. I was the co host, and then the host of the morning show at siege of phi, which is actually still the top station, yeah, especially at Christmas time. God help us.

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And I think they start Christmas music tomorrow, right? Yeah, I think, yeah, it's March time. We've had a good two months off the

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there are no jobs anymore in radio that pay that kind of money. And it's not that, it's just for the money, but to be able to do Monday to Friday like I have a nice life, yeah? And to have to work anywhere under that kind of pressure five days a week at this point in my life,

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being paid a decent salary, that opportunity no longer exists in this industry, yeah? And if it does, please call me Yeah. But I mean, I've been approached, yeah, I've been approached by consultant like, I could see you being an insult, incredible boss when someone has experienced as much as you have, like, and we're going to talk about the Jen Valentine stuff, but like, when I think of what you've been up against, how you've handled things, you know how you've carved a name for yourself in a male, dominant industry that still has a legacy, even if you're off the air. To me, you know, I think that some young people could really benefit from sitting there with you. Well, that's really, that's really kind of you. But, I mean, this is gonna sound kind of mean, but I think that a lot of what we used to call program directors, they're called contact director, content directors of different names, people who are, yeah, contact robots, I think that. And I've had so many over 40 years working across the country, yeah, that they're almost all frustrated performers with the idea that if you can't do it, then you'd be going to management. And one of the things that I love about broadcasting and podcasting and radio and talking to you is that it's live, it's spontaneous, and anything can happen. And

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that's what attracts me to doing this, not sitting around and coaching other people, not that there's anything wrong with that. Yeah, that's not your gym, yeah? As opposed to those actors who said, what I really want to do is direct, I would never, I would just what I really wanted to do is act. So that wasn't really mean at all. I love how you set it up. As you were about to say something mean. I think there are probably a few contact directors who are going, that's kind of mean. Well, there's an art of being mean. I.

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Yeah, as it relates to your recent sub stack, I'll link that in the show notes, by the way, because I just read it. Margaret Atwood, she is mean,

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but I'm not the only one saying that. You know, this is because she's intentionally mean, yeah, and I think she's aware of it too. Yeah, it hasn't hurt her at all. We just read Book of Lives in our Jane Arden podcast book club, really? Yeah, it was my pick. And I think most people were like, oh God. Like, this audio book just goes on and on and on and we're gonna drive off the road because it's so monotone. Like, does she read it herself? She does. Oh dear, yeah. But you know, because it's Margaret Atwood, we had an interest in it, of course, and it is a good book, and she have any interest in the burgeoning Canadian literary scene of the 60s and 70s. It's fantastic, but yeah, she does have a monotone delivery. Bless her, bless her, bless her heart. So coming back to all this radio stuff, you know, we just talked about you kind of being triggered by this new breast cancer experience 20 years later, and now we're also going back to, like, a radio experience that you kind of had to relive, yeah, so you know, going back to this time in radio that you kind of had to, like, revisit and relive some, you know, not amazing memories and experiences. I want to know what it took for you to participate in this human rights tribunal that. Jen Valentine, I was there.

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You were subpoenaed. Oh, I didn't have a choice. But, of course, no, no, but I would have, I would have, subpoena is the right word. But, yeah, I was called. You're mandated. When the when the tribunal asks you to testify, you don't get to say no, right and not that I would have, not that. Yeah, it's interesting to even know that, right? Because, like, here in the public, we're following along, but we don't know these things. Yeah, I know it's interesting. So about that. So this is an ongoing thing. There they will. I think, I think they're done with with Gen side, which we'll call the prosecution, although in a tribunal, it's not strictly, it's not like courtroom dramas you see on television when they come back later on this month and next, it goes on forever. They will bring in the defense, which would be corus and all the big guns and former CEOs and Yes, John Derringer and Ryan Parker and John Garbett. Guess what? Boys and girls you can watch. Anybody can watch, as long as you haven't testified yet, request a link. You can, really, you have, you look at you've done that. You can request a link, and you can, you can watch everything happen, not if you're going to be a witness like I wasn't allowed to watch any of Jen's testimony because I came on after her, and we were not to have any contact, and I was not to discuss the case. Now that I've testified, I am free to discuss it with you, and free to watch the proceedings as they unfold. That being said, you know, I do get a little nervous, because I wouldn't want to say or do anything to jeopardize this. Yeah, and I, you know, I think that there would be, there's a very clear line of when it would become something that could be jeopardized. But I don't think you're anywhere close to No. I don't understand being nervous, though. Yeah, why? What? And I was, I tell you, so I was supposed to testify on it. So Jen was, like, there she was on the stand. And I need to to to specify this in case whoever's listening isn't clear on this. So John Deringer, who is an extremely successful morning show hosted Q 107, former co host of Maureen Holloway and Jennifer Valentine and numerous other women. It was kind of the blue beard of the business, for lack of a better word. He had his long history of of

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it wasn't sexual harassment, it was bullying of and so many people left their jobs and and anyway, he was found. Jennifer put out this video, which has now become famous on Facebook four years ago. Yeah, saying that this was after she'd been let go. She came to corus after I'd left, and she basically had, this is what's been going on. And I didn't know her particularly well, but obviously I had to support her, because what she said was true. And so I did, and she she launched this Human Rights Tribunal appeal to the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal, and they agreed that they would see now this is not Darren Drew's on trial. He was let go, paid off handsomely, handsomely, from what I heard, but corus is now being investigated for knowledge of on this going on for years and not doing anything about it.

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And so that is what's at stake here. Darren, just not going to be found guilty. You're not guilty. That ship has sailed. He's more in terms of liability and responsibility. So Jennifer, on her own dime, retained a lawyer, very good lawyer, named Lisa Stam and so she has poured a lot of money, her own money, into this Yes, and if they are found liable, what the tribunal does? She can't sue.

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This is preempted any opportunity to file a class action suit or anything like that. If she does win, if they win, she will get some combination of damages. They will pay her expenses for this trial, but she's not going to make any there's no money off this. Yeah, there's none. So she's doing this for very admirable reasons, and for us, I'm gonna say doing it for us. And of course, because I'd been through what she'd been through over a long period of time, not as bad, not as bad. She had it really bad. I and I didn't do anything. I got offered another job, and I was see, I'm out of here. See you losers.

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I I didn't do anything about it. I mean, I did have, when I left corus, I had a lawyer who was like, aren't you going to take this any further? And I was like, No, you're so exhausted at that point that it's like, I'm gonna take, I'm gonna take the opportunity from ch five. I'm gonna leave. And then they hired Jennifer, and then this was what happened to her. So I feel that, I feel honored but bound to support her because she's, you know, I heard you say to to humble and Fred that you had some regrets that you kind of kept your head down. Yeah, I

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Yeah,

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that's a tough one well, and I feel like I heard a little bit of myself in you, like I can think of some of my own experiences that I've been through, and I have also felt that way. So it resonated with me when you said that. But you know, even when that Facebook video that Jen put together first got posted, yeah, I'm sure that's one of the things that is sort of,

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and I've been asked by a few people, Well, why didn't you, you know? Why are you piling on now? What if you knew that this was going on

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about it's not for personal gain, I don't know. But, I mean, I did go to HR twice whole time I was there. I mean, I didn't just sit there and they never did anything, yeah, you just decided when it was time to leave it, yeah. And I remember saying, I'm I suffered too. I started taking anti anxiety, anti anxiety meds and but, yeah, I know, but I just felt that. I felt hopeless. I felt that nothing was going to be done, and I never, I mean, Jan had a huge and has a huge Facebook following. I didn't Facebook was still in its nascent stages, so I didn't have a platform, really, outside the radio state. I wasn't gonna say, like, Oh, that was Led Zeppelin. And by the way, I'm living a nightmare.

27:47  
Is that the title of this episode? I'm joking,

27:51  
no, but I get, I know what you're saying, and like you, it was easier for me to walk away than, like, fight to the bitter end to get something done. Like, you know, that's my experience with with former roles as well, too. There's nothing, you know what? There's nothing wrong with that. Because, yeah, I mean, people who have complained in our positions in the past have been let go. Yeah? And we know that, right? We're, we're painfully aware of that, right? I'm also wondering, you know, like, let's, let's put you three, four days before you're going to speak. Well, I was so nervous. Yeah, I was so nervous because I, well, I didn't realize that it's a far more, it's not as daunting a situation as it is, and you can do it over. Zoom, I went in in person, but I'll bet you dollars to know nuts that all the corus people will not be in there in person. But anyway, I was there in person and and there's Jen and and her counsel, and then there's the corus, HR, person and corus is counsel and the judge, who is you don't call them your honor. They're called a member. I said to call them your member. And it was like, no, no, no, no, no. There's no jury. There's just he is a judge. The day that I went in court to support Jen in you actually, you went in, you were there, yeah. And it was like, right before you were supposed to speak, and you got pushed back to a different day. I got, I got pushed back three or four days. But go on, yeah. So when I was in there, he must have recognized me, but in the first 20 minutes, he's like, and I believe Sarah Burke from the women in media podcast is in the room. No, that's not who you think. That was the defense you were sitting in the gal Well, what they call the galleries, just like three chairs right back that up. I think that he was going to try and use a clip from my podcast as an example in that courtroom, because Jan did a lot like a two parter with you about this? Yes, yeah, yeah, so you can go back and listen to that. Well, I'll put that in the show notes, just to make it easy too, if you haven't listened to those episodes. But maybe you know, and it's like a specific question that like, comes up right away, but what was the hardest to answer in that room for you, the or the hardest thing to revisit? I.

30:00  
Surprised how emotional it was, because I've talked about this a fair amount. I mean, not, not like Jen, but I've been on your podcast. I've been on, I mean, when this whole story broke, I was CBC, the Toronto Star. I mean, it was a huge story. It's not, it's not the story it was anymore. I think a lot of people are like, who's John Derringer, but back then, I mean, in our industry, yes, but back then it was huge. So I've talked about it an awful lot, and I thought, well, I you know, there's nothing I got a handle on it. But as I was talking about this is to Lisa the lawyer's skill,

30:34  
I found my that she wanted to talk about two incidences, incidents, two incidents that I had experienced where I was. I was harangued by Derringer in front of a lot of people. And one went way back to when we were on location in London, England. And the other one was one radio would send you places, yeah, cool budget. Yeah, yeah, okay. And the last one was my last day on his show,

31:01  
even though they were, like, seven years apart, and just relate, retelling what happened was, was triggering, and I found myself close to tears. And like, you know, I thought I was a thought it was a tough cookie. I thought I was over that. But no, it was, you know, it's, it's called a trauma.

31:20  
Trauma revisits, no matter what you've been through.

31:25  
But you know what, Sarah, I'm going to say, what I said there, what I've said over and over again. I had, how long, 15 years with Derringer, one of the best dance partners I've ever had, one of the most charismatic. And we had phenomenal chemistry. We had a fantastic show and a fantastic run, and a fantastic run. He blew it. He blew it with me. There's no way I was going to tolerate the type of treatment that he was used to dishing out. But he didn't really understand. He didn't really understand. I'm sure he was shocked when it came out, because he never really thought that what he was doing was so wrong.

32:04  
corus knew. They knew the whole time. And that is almost like the thesis we need to pin to the top of this conversation, right? That is, they are the bad actors. In this case, they knew they saw countless people, men and women, but mostly women have what we call breakdown. We used to call breakdowns. They let people go. They did not support them all, because Derringer was their cash cow. They allowed this to happen. I can name names from the top to the bottom, of people who witnessed this and let this happen, and they are finally being held responsible, and it's a fucking dream come true. Yeah? I think the comment that mo made to me in text when we were just like catching up the other day was that's gonna be like the Super Bowl. When we get to hear all these people,

32:53  
we will make the dip. Yeah, yeah, the tough cookie thing. I want to kind of circle back to that. It's so funny, I would say the same thing about myself, right? And what I think I can handle, and what you know, I've also, you know, had some amazing experiences, including working with former bosses that I don't think you know, still understand the way that they treated people. No, you know what I mean. I know what you mean. Do you think that he might understand it? Now, we're just speculating, because I don't think you're talking to that guy, but do you think he gets it? Now, you talk about Derrida, he got his money, and he got to kind of fade off into the sunset. Does he actually get it? I don't know. You know, and all this time, nobody's really asked

33:42  
me, and I've thought about it because, because he's not a stupid man, and also he's a former addict on I hope he's still, well, he's an addict, right? He's a reformed addict, but once addict, always an addict. And, yeah, he's done a lot of therapy and a lot of work, so we, you know, it's not like he's living an unexamined life, does he really and he has three daughters and

34:03  
and a wife, although I don't know if they're still nobody has seen him. Yeah, seen him since that may weekend, four years ago. Wow. So does he know you never spoke to him again? Oh, God, following your last day radio. That was it? Right? No, I did. I did. I did because I was at the station for another year after that, they put afternoons right Mitchell,

34:25  
as if

34:28  
I have to, you want me to talk, I just have to give this. This story is just, it's funny, and it deserves another moment. But yes, on the humble and Fred podcast, you were saying that you were so nervous that you couldn't remember his his name. They were asking me so, you know, we were at q 107 in the mornings, and then you moved to afternoons. I said, Yes, I was, I took over afternoons from from Kim, from Kim,

34:54  
like he's, you know, the lead singer of Max Webster, like big rock star. It just wasn't.

35:00  
Coming to the surface, all I can think of is Kim Campbell

35:04  
or even Kim Clark champness.

35:08  
I cannot remember if Kim's last name just saved my life. So we moved on, but it rattled me because now they're clearly going to think that I've got dementia. In next headline, Maureen Holloway announces breast cancer and dementia.

35:24  
It could happen. But then about 10 minutes later, we're talking about something else. I'm still on the stand, and it has nothing to do with Kim and I hit Mitchell. I remembered, at least I got it in the in the record for the day. My God, it's too funny. God, so we're so where were we with this? Oh, yeah, so did I ever see him again? No, you said you were taught. You did talk to him in the year when you were doing afternoons. No, I never saw him at work, and we never had any contact, because doing mornings, afternoons, ships that pass in the night. But we have a mutual friend who who who runs BMW, and he had a private evening for people to come and look at their new cars. Like I was sure I'll go for a free dinner, not the market for a new BMW, especially not now, yeah, but I got invited, and John and I are walking in, and Steve goes, our host goes, Look who I've sat you with.

36:18  
No, yes,

36:21  
and it's like seated tables, see, yeah, oh yeah, next to, like, small cafe. How long had happened? Had it been it probably been about, I'm still there, so it was probably about six or seven months. And did you were you guys able to, like, say, Hey, how's it going? We did okay. We left because of the incongruity of the situation we were Do you could only laugh and go comic relief. How are you? Yeah, and yeah, it was okay.

36:54  
You know, for my sense, it was okay, but then, then I'm glad that you, you got that little moment with him. Like I said, we were together for 15 years. It's like running into an ex husband, you know, where there was a lot of stuff and a lot of shit that went down, a lot of rancor, people got hurt, but you know, you did have that time together, and I think we both sort of felt that way. I don't know how it would be now, yeah, but you don't think of contacting him now, like, just No, it's not No, no, no, there'd be nothing in it for either of us. Nothing in it. Yeah, yeah. You would say, you would, you would even think of that like, I know that Jen is Jen is justifiably because she's in court every day with Lisa. She sits right next there, right next to her, her her lawyer. She is afraid that. So they're they've subpoenaed not only that morning show, but former CEOs, former general managers, so all the brass, yeah, is coming in, and Jen is understandably a little nervous about having to see them in person. Yeah? And, I mean, I can only speak from my own experience, but like, I still get nervous running into those people. Yeah, that I, you know, decided to walk away from working with too. I don't know. It's the risk we take if we're going to stand up and even if we don't, course, you don't like that, if you didn't like it, then why would you like it? Now, no, no. But it's funny to me, because I actually this past week ran into someone that I detest, and I was like, oh, there's that familiar feeling creeping over my body. Even though I was at a concert and it was, you know, feel good, it still impacts you years later. Yeah, sure. No, there are a few people that, I mean, you can't go through this in without burning a few bridges. And also, how can I put this? There were people involved that I thought were my friends at corus, who I found out afterwards were just as instrumental in in hiding, and who said one thing spoke out of both sides of their mouth, yes, and and then that became clear, and I dropped them Yeah, but still run into them from time to time, not very often. And you know, they're like, why? And I'm like,

39:00  
Yeah, this is where, like, it would be so powerful. And, you know, let the let the Human Rights Tribunal finish, and everything gets signed and sealed and whatever. But like, how powerful would it be if one of these guys would make a statement showing remorse or shit, or, like, go on a podcast and talk about how you wish you did things differently. Nobody ever has that you're so right. That's that's what I dream about, not because I need it, but because it would mean so much to someone like Jen, who's fronting the bill to pave a better future. Could somebody say their story?

39:37  
Yeah.

39:40  
What's his name, Jeff woods. Jeff Woods, who was Program Director in the early days, he was on somebody's podcast, I can't remember who was not humble, and Fred was it was a lad. It was a guy's show, right? Okay, so he was asked, What did you do back when you were program director, and you were you aware that Derringer was a problem? And Jeff went University?

40:00  
Always goes, Yeah, I knew. I knew. They said, Well, what did you do about it? And he said, I just made sure that I kept when they weren't on the air. What kept them out of the room. And I remember listening to that going, that's not the solution, no. And the fact that you still think it is, that you just keep the bad bull away from the cattles that are being unfortunate metaphor there similarly. But no, you can't do that. That's not the solution. You just can't allow people to treat people like that. No, but to your point, Sarah, an apology from somebody, yeah, and likely appreciate it. Here's the thing, you might have been a complete asshole. 20 years ago, 15 years ago, five years ago, I don't care when it was, but if you can come to terms with your behavior being shit, and actually, you know, show allyship with what women go through in the workplace, and put your name on the line for that at this point, then I will actually have respect for you, right? Imagine, doesn't matter he, you know, everybody's got an excuse. Everybody's got, well, I didn't know or, or I told my superior. But the bottom line is, nobody ever did anything. People got hurt, sometimes very badly hurt. Yeah, and, and here we are. And how do you talk to your kids about things like this. Well, my kids are grown man. First of all, I look up at them because for six feet, how do I tell them? They tell me, more often than not, my younger son's a lawyer.

41:32  
So, yeah, so a full blown lawyer. And so I did sort of talk to him a little bit about what I can and can't say. And you know, he was, but he was helpful in that.

41:44  
What do I tell them? They're nice guys, like, they're beyond nice guys. They're, they're, they're millennial and Gen X, so they're very sensitive. I mean, they've been brought up in this environment where, where everyone should be treated the same way, and, like, there it's another generation. Really. You're kind of an older millennial, aren't you? I'm a millennial. You're a millennial. Sure your upbringing is very different from from mine, where, you know, I still come from the generation where, when I started in radio, I remember being told when I was hired, you know, when I was negotiating my salary, Q, 107, they said, Well, you know, we're I was Lee. I had left, what is now virgin. It was mixed at the time, and they said, Well, we're, we're prepared to offer you a good salary, not Derringer money, though. I mean, that was just, that was just say that out loud, yeah, don't expect to be paid the same as your male counterpart at well, actually, he wasn't my co host at the time. So there was that. But, you know, just the attitudes were so completely different. And even still, like, with that generational thing, you know, I think that has excused some of the behavior, because some of these people have not known any better, and that's where there's a big opportunity to just acknowledge that generational thing and let, like, move through it properly, face it head on, yeah, you know, I don't, I was thinking about my older son. He's in commercial real estate. It's still very much a bro culture, because it's industrial, right, like not an awful lot of women in his office, although there are in retail, yeah, an office. But, you know, Joe warehouse still looking for place park his truck was talk to fellow about it. So, yeah, there are that. No, I wouldn't say it's a brave new world, but it's better than it was.

43:27  
Better than it was. Yeah, so if a young producer or host, maybe content creator is more appropriate these days, is living in fear at work, what is the practical advice that you give them, given everything you've been through and how things have changed and not changed today. Well, first of all, be clear that someone is exhibiting behavior towards you that you find difficult. Be clear that you don't like it,

43:54  
you know, calm, but like you know, even when you tell your your toddler, just say I don't like that. Please stop that. It's advice. I don't like you speak to me that way. I would prefer that you've not talked to me that way, or call me this or, yeah. I mean, don't be afraid to do that. Sometimes you're dealing with someone who's borderline psychotic, if not completely. But you know, be clear that this is not tolerable, because, to your point earlier, maybe they don't even know. I think so many of these people are still oblivious. Yeah, yeah. So you just sort of like, you pick a time just to make I remember when the early days with with Darren Jerry, he was giving me the silent treatment for No, that's so abusive. Yeah, it was for like two or three days I went to our my program director at the time, who was one of your program directors, once, and said, you know, this is happening. And he said, Well, why don't you take him for lunch, which was like wrong advice, but I did, and I did. I took him for lunch and said, Hey, listen, I like this job. I like you. I think we got a good thing going.

45:00  
It, but you're giving me the silent treatment, which is really throwing me off. And it worked. Now it was up to you. Well, it

45:09  
was up to you to anyway, but I guess what I'm trying to say is is just open up the lines of communication with the bully or your oppressor. I'm not saying it's going to work, but it's worth a try. And if that doesn't work, then, yes, go to management. Yes, go to HR. I know that people are told are, if you go to HR, it's black mark against you. Well, get paper, to get evidence, because if things, if things are bad and push comes to shove, or, as a friend of mine says, When push comes to shovel,

45:37  
you should you should have a you should have a track, you should have a trace. You should have you should do the best you can to deal with the situation to the best of your ability. And don't be afraid. Yeah, bad. Then leave. And to your point, you know, like tracking that stuff gets hard if you're emotional, so write it down in real time.

45:55  
You're what I was 10 years later trying to recall stuff that I had recorded. So that is a very good point. What would you like to see in writing? Speaking of records as it relates to like policy or protections for women in the workplace, they're Toothless, though, Sarah, because, you know, when I went to Rogers, they have the very clearly, I can't think of the right word, but it's a, it's like a manifesto, where you agree when you're when you're onboarded, that everyone will be treated with respect and yada yada yada, right? And you sign it and it's completely Toothless.

46:32  
I can laugh along with you. Yeah, you know? I mean, I went, that's another story. I went from a frying pan into the fire, and I left and ended up with Darren B lamb at Rogers, who was just so fun, so fun. But yeah, as I've said to humble and Fred, I could make morning men disappear.

46:52  
Hey, you actually can. I can. But yeah, it's Toothless. What would I like companies to do actually back up what they stop paying lip service to things and actually care and make it you know, I have a problem with that. Believe her.

47:09  
Slogan that went around for a while. You know, this had more to do with with, you know, rape and sexual harassment. Believe her, yeah, believe her not. Give her the time. Keep your mind open,

47:23  
but, I mean, that gets abused as well. But, yeah, don't start paying lip service to this idea that everybody here treats everybody with respect. We're human, we're flawed. That's not going to be the case all the time anywhere. So, you know, listen to your employees and make it a safe space for them to come and talk to you when things go wrong and report up. I wonder who I'm addressing that to.

47:50  
I just have such a like, a clear image of a woman in HR, in my mind that, God, there's so many things I would love to have her on this podcast. She would never but like, Who's this now? Pam Bondi,

48:06  
honestly, she's the equivalent, yeah, really, literally, the equivalent talk about not supporting women and trying to poke holes actively in their stories, to protect the men. This is, like, that's a such a good point where you know this? Yeah, they are. Women are, and I guess you could argue women are worse than men if, because how could a woman not support a woman? But I don't buy it into that. I don't think the world would be a better place if women were in charge. I wish there were more women in charge, but I don't think they're automatically, you know, Margaret Thatcher, because so many women have come out of the broligarchy. Yeah. I actually just parted ways with a client who I could tell is, like, operating from this, like, patriarchal sort of yeah perspective. And like, the way she spoke to me, I was like, Oh, I'm starting to feel a lot like, you know, like, yeah, and I won't have that anymore. No. Well, that's the thing. Just draw the line and stay behind it. Yes, exactly. Okay. In closing, so what does it mean

49:09  
for you to support women? Loudly, okay, I'm I'm just sort of a feminist by default. Isn't everybody? Isn't every intelligent person a feminist. It doesn't mean that you want women to do better than men. It just means that you want women to do better. I think using the word loudly is an interesting one, Sarah, because

49:33  
you can say you can talk the talk, but you got to walk the walk. That's kind of what I'm getting at the quiet support of women is agreeing and patting them on the back, yeah. But like, how do you how do you show up with them? Yeah, you know what I mean? Well, I think you'd have to be a little more fearless. I mean it what's the worst that can happen? The worst can happen is you can lose your job for talking about this kind of thing in the workplace. And that's pretty.

50:00  
Be bad, but it's not going to happen because you complained. It

50:05  
isn't, and if it does, then you have recourse. Might cost you a little bit of money, but nobody can let you go because you were you complained legitimately to the right people about something that was going on. They can investigate it or whatever. Yeah, maybe I'm being naive. Maybe they'll say she's a she's trouble,

50:24  
you know, but it's better than the way things are on. If you have tenure, if you've been at a place for a long time, if you're doing a good job, I'm assuming all these these things are in place that should give you ammunition to go forward and do the right thing for yourself and your colleagues.

50:42  
That's what I think, is supporting women loudly. I mean, in my situation, there were men who were being bullied, and I was as supportive of them as I could be, but they weren't doing anything themselves, because men aren't afraid to come forward because it's unmanly. Yep. So I would widen this argument and say, you know, you got to speak up for people who can't, who won't speak up for themselves, but only to a certain extent, they ultimately have to speak up for themselves too. And this invite is for Ryan Parker and Garbett, if you'd like to come on the podcast, you just let I'm joking. Nobody. Never would, they, never would. They never would, because you've got something to you got some explaining to do, yeah, but I would love to hear what they would say to you, what they would say to Jen, so we're gonna find out. They'll be on the stand. I think when this Human Rights Tribunal is over, we need to have like a round table, you and Jen in there, and you know, any of the other women who participated a dude, if he wants to, yeah? I think, yeah. I think we could have a really cool discussion down the road about what came out of it. So, yeah, we'll be watching. That is a great idea. Yes, we will be watching. It'll be our Super Bowl. Thanks, Sarah, thank you so much for coming back on the show and nice catching up with you. I will see you on the golf course. Okay, you'll find more information about that human rights case Jen Valentine versus corus entertainment in the show notes, along with Maureen substack for the women of ill repute. If you've got a guest that you think I should speak to on an upcoming episode, you're always welcome to drop me a note at women in media, dot network or find me on Instagram, send me a DM there. All those links are also in the show notes. And as always, thank you so much for listening. You.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai