Tracy Moore: Who Wins When We're Quiet?

Sarah Burke  0:00  
I'm Sarah Burke, and this is the women in media podcast. We're on the road today, well, not very far from my home, but we are recording this episode in Ada studios, this little open house, the home of Universal Music Canada, in Liberty Village, Toronto. And I thought for the occasion, I would invite the special guest that I've been chasing since this podcast launch, if I'm being honest, back in 2021 I'm so excited to welcome award winning television host Tracy Moore. How are you?

Speaker 1  0:30  
I am so well the whole time I was just thinking, Can you hear my stomach growling? I'm not even hungry. But while you were talking, all I heard was,

Sarah Burke  0:38  
didn't hear a thing good. We got good engineers. We'll figure that out. I will say, though, you know, I know you've been in a transition, and I never like approaching people like right when the transition is happening. So I thank you so much. I'm grateful that you wanted to come and chat and tell me what's been going on in your life, but, like, 16 years in one place, especially, you know a national audience that would follow you for so long. I don't imagine that's a an easy thing. I would love to hear a little bit about how that sort of ended. Yeah, that's okay, yeah.

Speaker 1  1:11  
This is me. Like, how much do I edit this here? Here's what I would say. So is 16 years hosting city line, best job I ever had, and I know you've had past jobs that you absolutely loved. I probably would have never left that job if it didn't end the way it did. But it was 20 years with city TV, 16 years with city line, and the show was canceled last year. So 2024, and that was the tough pill to swallow. Like, I think I went through all the stages of grief, like bargaining, denial, you know, like anger, rage, like whatever. And then, and then it was like, okay, acceptance, so the show was done. They're gonna keep me on. We were gonna do a different show. Then that show didn't end up happening, I have since been very, felt very, actually grateful. And the reason why I feel grateful is because I had a good chunk of time between the end of city line and my termination at City TV to start to, I guess, inch my way out of the industry. Anyone who works in media knows it is damn seductive. Oh, you know, like it's a hot, sexy industry. It was an addiction. It's an addiction, right? There's a little Stockholm syndrome, a little bit happening in the media. And when you're in it and you love it, and you've been able to act like a child under Arrested Development and but also create products good reference. You know what? I mean? It's, it's, it's hard to say, it's hard to say goodbye to that. It's hard to think, Well, what else am I doing? I don't want to work at the bank. Yeah, you know, like, I'm not, like, I don't want to be a nurse. Like, what else am I doing? So it was, it was a good amount of time, it was like a good eight months or so of not really having a show, but still having my foot in the industry and starting to dream about other things. So by the time January came around, I think I was fully in acceptance mode, and I the writing was on the wall that I wasn't going to be able to stick around with the with the station, because there just was not real estate for me to host. There was no show. And then it was sort of like, you know, the day I made the announcement, I was happy making the announcement, but I'm like, a feeler. I don't know how you are, Sarah, but it's like, I think I take on a lot of the emotions around me and you built a relationship

Sarah Burke  3:43  
with this audience that is probably longer than most relationships in your life,

Speaker 1  3:48  
100% and they saw me like, start as someone who didn't know what the hell I was doing, to someone who would, like, you know, sort of significantly shaped the show near The end. So I put out the announcement, I remember on a Monday, and it was like I sat there paralyzed on my couch. I just felt like I couldn't move. I felt exhausted. I felt like I was taking video, right? It was a video I made, and I meant everything I said in that video, because I did feel actually, I felt good. But then when I put it out, and people are like, oh, good for you. That's great that you're staying on to do this project. This is terrible. Oh my god, it's awful. I'm devastated. I'm so sad. And then dealing with all of that, and then having to go through the process of recognizing that I can carry my own stuff, my own shit, my own emotions, my own disappointment, but it's very, I can't carry everyone else's Yeah, I would say it was a good, like, two to three days of just like, moving real

Sarah Burke  4:49  
slow through life, little bit of a hangover, a media hangover, little

Speaker 1  4:53  
hangover, and then, and then after that, it was sort of like, all right, it's a new era, and there's a. Lot of UN programming to do, and there's a lot of fun things to sort of sink my teeth into

Sarah Burke  5:07  
now, yeah. And while I do want to go back in time a little bit and, like, hear how you got into media, I think a lot of my audience would love to hear a bit more about that, too. The real reason that I wanted to have you in is the freedom of this next chapter, and you getting to, you know, decide who Tracy Moore is without being attached to Rogers or city line or any of these, these brands that you've come to represent over the years, right? Yeah, I went through a bit of that myself. When, you know, when I've left my job at NDA, when I've left my job at Sirius XM, I didn't know who I was. Like when you reach out your hand to introduce yourself to someone. Hey. Sarah Burke, manager of music at Sirius XM. How are you so? Like, there's this period of, like, how do I introduce myself? I don't even know what I'm working on next. I would be interested to know after those three days of being a little bit of a sloth, yeah. Like, what were you feeling called to? What do you need more of in your life?

Speaker 1  6:04  
Oh, that's a good question. I I have embarked on a little bit of a

Sarah Burke  6:10  
project, okay? And

Speaker 1  6:12  
the project is, how about I just do what I want? Yeah, and, and the point of that is, you throw that out there, and it sounds really easy, yeah, just do what you want. But actually, we don't know how we have been in hustle culture. Most of us, you know, two West Indian parents or whatever, women hustling in an industry that doesn't necessarily make space for us. Like, whoever you are, you're in this industry, and you're on the treadmill on any in any industry, really. And so the idea of actually flowing with what I with, what my body wants to do and what my brain and soul wants to do is very new for me. The only thing that has to get done is stuff for my kids, their schedules are non negotiable. They've got to be at hockey. They've got to be at this. They've got to be at that. But for me, it sort of became, what do I like? What if I do have extra time? How do I want to spend it? Do I want to be reading in front of the fireplace? Do I want to be walking the dog? Do I want to be writing? Do I want to be singing? Do like? What do I like? And it's interesting this whole idea of, how do I introduce myself? Because I went on, I feel like, like I'm in a weird place in my life, and so I'm doing like, weird stuff. Yeah, I went on a retreat with a bunch of strangers. I knew the woman running the retreat, and that's it. And I went and for that entire week, I never asked anyone what they did, and no one asked me, beautiful. Wouldn't that be a great way to live? I'm going on a retreat in two weeks where I know only one person. I love it. This is so funny. I think you're going to love it. What do you want to get out of that retreat?

Sarah Burke  7:55  
I think like disconnecting. I want to disconnect. I'm too connected with everything right now, yep. And, I mean, that sounds like part of like, you know what? You're un programming, yeah, a little bit. Yes. You don't need to respond to the client within five minutes. It will be okay. You can have an evening or a weekend to yourself,

Speaker 1  8:18  
right? Like, all of those things. I think it's going to be, like, a full recalibration for me to be honest. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I had similar goals going to this retreat, and I got about 10 times more than I ever expected, because there was actual Can I didn't come there for the people, yeah? I was like, oh, it's Costa Rica. I'm going to look at a leaf and a tree, and there's the sea, and I'm going, and it's going to be beautiful, and I'm going to want to, like, exhale and look at stars. All of that was true. But then there was also, like, genuine vulnerability and connection. You know, like 11 women that are now like sisters, they're part of my they're part of my core group now, right? Because we were just so real walking into that space and and it was a good exercise in, it's not about my job. Oh, yeah. Like, who the hell are you? Tracy Moore, you know, how who, what are your values and beliefs? So that's so interesting. So that was, yeah, it was a really interesting time. And I gave I did the little experiment even when I was there. I brought my laptop and I wanted to get some writing done. And I said to myself, I'm not going to force myself, because when you force yourself, you get it done, but you get it done kicking and screaming. And that could be eight loads of laundry, or it could be a project you have to get done, or it could be like setting up an Excel spreadsheet, like even saying those words, I get a visceral shiver like across my body, so I, you know, I got there on a Saturday, acclimatized. Sunday, let's hang out by the pool. Monday, we had an excursion. Tuesday, I had a massage. I was like, oh shit, I'm leaving here on Thursday, I haven't picked up the laptop. I said, don't panic when you want to do it. You will do it. Trust yourself, because I don't think we trust ourselves. Course. And the next morning I woke up, and sure enough, I wanted to write, and it was the most effortless, easy, breezy, quality content. And so I think I like, I'm trying to live more of my life that way. Like feeling, feeling, feeling in my body. Am I hungry right now? Or is it just 12 o'clock noon, so I have to eat lunch, right? Yeah, does the laundry have to get folded right now, or will I have a burst of energy on Saturday at 3pm like, why are we living life in a way where we have all these arbitrary, arbitrary for me because I'm unemployed, like, these are all arbitrary. They're all made up. The urgency is created, right? Like, how can I flip that and just like, calm the nervous system and flow a little bit more. So that's been my project.

Sarah Burke  10:49  
I can't wait to have my, I guess, dose of that, and there's some silent there's silent mornings, beautiful. And I think that's going to be challenging for me. I have trouble sitting still, so it'll be really interesting. And I think that's part of what you were getting at, that this industry sort of breeds is like, you must always be busy, or else, right? So when did you get into the media, and was it something like, growing up, you saw someone on TV that you were like, I want to do that. Or how did you arrive?

Speaker 1  11:20  
If we go all the way back to high school. I loved reading and writing, so I was one of those like, please keep the chemistry away from me. I want to write an essay. And I had a really good grade 11 English teacher who was so lovely, she would invite other classes to come in and watch my presentations like I sound like the biggest nerd. And I loved it. And so I said to her, Okay, Miss holding I love to write. I love to read. Like, what does that mean? And I didn't want to be a novelist. And she's like, Oh no, honey, you can be a lawyer, you can be you can go into politics, you can go into journalism. And I was like, oh, so she advised me to take a general arts degree when I went to university, and I did that. And my first year in university, I started volunteering at the campus radio station. Where

Sarah Burke  12:06  
are we? McGill? We're at McGill in Montreal. And were you born in Montreal? No, Richmond Hill, Ontario. Okay, this is super weird. I grew I grew I grew up in Richmond Hill. Where are you allowed to say that? Yes, yes, baby, major Mac. My parents still live there highway seven and young. Wow. Did you go to high school there? I went to high school at Bayview secondary. Where did you go? Langstaff? And was Langstaff still a dirt

Unknown Speaker  12:31  
pile? It looked like a jail on a hill.

Sarah Burke  12:33  
Yeah, I smoked my first joint there. Special, Special. Oh, my God. What a weird, funny connection. Okay, please. So funny. Okay, so you, you went to McGill.

Speaker 1  12:41  
So I went to McGill. So yes, I'm doing political science as Miss holding told me to, and I'm loving my life. And I start volunteering at the radio. The campus radio station, there was a black political diasporic show. Even back then, I was very much about repping for the community and learning about my community, because that kind of information we were not learning about in school. So I started volunteering at this radio station. I was like, I like, this, we were really bad. Like, it sucked. We didn't know what we were doing. I suck too, yeah. Like, we didn't know, but, but I, but I caught the broadcast bug. And then I went on to do my Masters in Journalism at Western and then I started to,

Sarah Burke  13:22  
did you really ridiculous?

Speaker 1  13:25  
Oh, my goodness, parallel lives. So what were you there as an undergrad or a grad

Sarah Burke  13:30  
student, I did a joint degree, diploma, Western and fan shop, love it. And I went to Carleton first for the journalism program. It didn't love it. And I ended up dropping out. And I landed in a program where it could, like, touch the buttons. Yes, that's what I needed.

Speaker 1  13:43  
Yes, a little bit more technical. We all. I needed more of that for sure, 100%

Sarah Burke  13:47  
Yeah, so And did you also go to McGill? I'm just wondering to, like, get out of the house, like, far away. I

Speaker 1  13:53  
don't know where I got this McGill idea from, because nobody. There was maybe one other person in my high school that went and my best friend, who was at Bayview, but she had been my best friend from elementary school. She had applied to McGill, so we ended up living together that first year. But I was interested in Montreal. I knew I wanted to go to university away. I just like, I wasn't escaping my parents, but I was ready. Okay.

Sarah Burke  14:17  
I was escaping literally, but yeah, I was just like, I need to get they they were, I would say a little bit like, overprotective. I was the oldest. And do you have older siblings?

Speaker 1  14:26  
See, that would have been my sister. She's eldest daughters. I don't know. You should get some kind of a tax break. Thank you. You should get a bursary, a government grant. Like, I just oldest daughters. I'm so

Sarah Burke  14:37  
sorry. No, it's okay now you you touched on, you know, there being lots of black conversations that you were drawn to, but how was that like in your your home, growing up and in your family, like, I

Speaker 1  14:48  
was very invested in learning about my culture and our people, and I wasn't necessarily getting the answers from my parents. And it's, it's interesting, because they are. Jamaicans like grew up, literally, neighbors in Kingston, Jamaica, and in Jamaica, I would say there are issues of colorism there, but there aren't issues of race per se, because it's predominantly black Island. It's more about the colorism in the shade, yes, and it's about classism. So them coming to Canada, they did not have a good grasp on what the hell was going on globally with blacks. And I was like, why are we losing everywhere? What's going on in every African country? Why are black Americans at the bottom of the structure? Why are black Canadians struggling like, why in like, South America, are the blacks at the bottom? Like I was connecting the dots at Lynn, like grade nine. Yeah, you were writing the essays. I was writing the essays at this point. And every time I had an independence study unit, I spent it learning about black history because we were not being taught. My parents were sort of like, I don't know. They didn't understand the systems of oppression and the structures and the institutions that were literally had racism woven into the way they worked, so that I had to, I had to teach myself that stuff.

Sarah Burke  16:12  
Yeah. And then, when did you realize that you wanted to like, dedicate time to like projects that further explore this and sharing these stories.

Speaker 1  16:22  
I helped start the Caribbean students association there in high school, hell yes, she did, yeah. And then undergrad, for sure, very politically active trying to keep the African Studies program going at McGill, which they ended up cutting. And then at Western not so much. I felt very like whoa. It is very white and male here. That's how I felt about Western and then getting into television right out the gate.

Sarah Burke  16:47  
Got a job while you were still in school. I bet I did an internship.

Speaker 1  16:51  
So the lovely phase of exploitation we do right after getting our degree and and then got a job, not in editorial, but as a crew assigner. So I was assigning the camera people where to go, at CBC. Terrible at it. Terrible at in Toronto or London, in Toronto. Okay, yeah, I've only worked in Toronto. So I started in Toronto. Yeah, I was very I was adamant about it. I'm like, who's gonna do my hair in Calgary is doing my hair in Winnipeg. So

Sarah Burke  17:20  
one of my best girlfriends who actually works here in ANR at Universal, this hair conversation she had with me. She lived in Winnipeg, was moving to London, Ontario for broadcasting gig, and was worried about where she's gonna get her hair done. The phone call, found my hair place. I'm good, and now I'll take the job. Yeah, and now she's working here in Toronto, so I'm sure she went through it all again. Hopefully you'll get to meet her before we leave. Her name's MJ, Oh, that'd be awesome. So you know, you've received awards for a lot of the work that you're, I think, started in these moments. I don't know if it was like the Canadian screen award, Changemaker award, or if it's just like the specials that you've worked on, including, like, ending racism. What's, what's the way that you like to approach a project like this when, like, yes, your name is on it, but you have to work with a group of people. There needs to be a team that is trying to get the same message across. Like, how do you how do you navigate that? How do you navigate that? Especially, there's probably white people involved, yes, for sure,

Speaker 1  18:22  
for sure. Yes, it's predominantly white. For sure. We're in a predominantly white country. So that only makes sense. But what I found was it was, it was a lot more difficult before 2020 after 2020, all of a sudden, everybody wanted to talk about it, yeah. And then, because great awakening and the Great Awakening, right? So we also hired a few people of color on the staff, and oh, my goodness, the weight that was off my shoulders just having even one other person in the room that could be like, that's misogynoir. That is like, that is the cross between misogyny and racism. It's called misogynoir. It's like, you know, that term makes perfect sense. It's education, right? So it's like intersectionality and all of these sort of concepts that, if they if people have them as like a basic building block, then, you know? And they started pitching ideas that, and I didn't have to pitch the ideas. And they sort of understood other than that. I will say I had a very good, open group of producers that I was surrounded with that's great. They weren't saying they weren't invalidating my experiences. Let's put it that way. So if there was an idea that they knew nothing of. They were very open minded about it. Yeah, yeah. And so that's how the Navigating Yeah.

Sarah Burke  19:48  
It feels silly to ask this question, but I feel Ask away. But has there been a time where you have experienced racism? The answer is yes. You've. Experienced it, but if you feel comfortable sharing

Speaker 1  20:02  
about it, yeah. I mean, I think for most of us that are growing up here, or really anywhere in the world, but particularly countries where we are visible minorities, it's like grade one right out the gate, like, just called the end bomb and on the Yeah, and my children as well. Like this is, you know, 3540 years later, and it's the same, right? So the only difference now is that my kids have the language, and they will come home and tell us, whereas I don't know, am I going to tell my mom, who's going to go in there and be like the big, bad Jamaican mom, and I don't know if we need that added to the situation? Yeah, but yes, there have been, I think in Canada, we do polite racism. We were polite about everything, including our oppression. So a lot of the situations have been more like microaggressions. So like, how often do you wash your hair? And why is your hair look like that? And can I touch your hair? And, oh my gosh, look, I'm as brown as you are. We're like, we're twins. Yeah. Where are you from? No. Where are you really from? No. Where are you really from? Who knew black people had freckles? Actually, that one's

Sarah Burke  21:20  
kind of cute. You're like,

Speaker 1  21:21  
yes, some of us do. And you know, I would say if you were to ask my husband and my son, oh, my goodness, 10 times worse. I think that I'm very good at navigating communities that don't look like me, and I think that maybe that's a bit of a survival mechanism, but I lean into it easily, and I for me, what's been really important is, is having a community that I can vent with and to when I'm in situations like that, and then as I've gotten older, being able to defend myself, having sort of like a list of things that I can say right out the gate when things get awkward. And it's never, for me, about shaming anyone. It's just about being able to

Sarah Burke  22:08  
educate. Teachable moment. Yeah, it's a teachable moment, and sometimes I don't feel like teaching, right? Yeah, because the responsibility gets thrown on, especially women like you, who are you know, have these audiences and platforms. And it's like, well, maybe I don't want to talk about that today or this month or

Speaker 1  22:24  
right yeah. Like, maybe I don't want to talk about trauma right now. Maybe I don't want to teach you why that was so egregious what you just said. Maybe I want to, like, look the other way. So the other thing I've had to develop is a really acute forgiveness of myself and grace for myself for not having to fight every fight. Yeah, yeah, up to you.

Sarah Burke  22:41  
Yeah, where I was sort of going with that is, you know, if any experience of yours personally, or maybe something that came up in community led to one of these projects.

Speaker 1  22:54  
Oh, okay, yes, okay, it's interesting. You ask that, because I have never felt that I was doing it for me. And it's not even just the race thing, it's the gender thing, it's the new Canadian thing, like the immigrant thing, it's like the little girl thing. I've never felt because for all intents and purposes, my life has been good girl. Yeah, I don't have like, major trauma. I have the regular navigation in a society that doesn't necessarily look like me. I don't think things have been that terrible for me, but I have always been called to speak up for people who have less of a voice. Yeah, always, and I like, I'm not 100% even sure, except that you know, when you're an empath and you're looking around and people are struggling, that includes people that have no homes. I've done a lot of series on poverty as well. Poverty, to me, is something that is treated so badly, like a disease in this society, and talk about victim blaming, but I've always been called to like, say something you're in a you're in a very privileged position. So say something in that position.

Sarah Burke  24:07  
Do you remember an a very early time in your life where you used your voice like that?

Unknown Speaker  24:15  
I defended the nerds in school.

Sarah Burke  24:17  
Hey, it's got to start somewhere. And

Speaker 1  24:21  
I use the word nerd fondly, because I consider myself part nerd. It's like I'm part nerd, part bad gal, like I'm out. I was out there in the club, clubbing from 15 years old, okay? But also Palazzo, oh my god, I did go to Palazzo,

Sarah Burke  24:37  
the Richmond Palazzo. Thursdays. Thursdays, hilarious.

Speaker 1  24:42  
But I always I didn't know that I was doing that until I got older and was on television, and I was getting Facebook posts from people that I was in elementary school and high school with, and they said, You came to my birthday party. Oh my gosh. And I didn't think you were gonna come to my birthday party. Because you came to my birthday party, so and so came to my birthday party. Like, of course, I came to your birthday party. It's a party.

Sarah Burke  25:06  
Come on, I'm gonna be there. I am there. But you didn't realize that you, from a young age, were doing no

Speaker 1  25:13  
like, speaking to people that are generally ostracized. I would not think twice about, Yeah, bring calling them in, like, come on over like, I don't care if no one else wants to talk to you, come on over here. Yeah. And so that is, you know, it's putting yourself out there because you don't know if then you're going to be ostracized. But it never occurred to me that that would make me less popular.

Sarah Burke  25:36  
It's almost, it's an exercise also in finding your confidence too. Yes. Now in this business, you know, you got to have a bit of a healthy ego. And, you know, confidence is sort of like a basic thing that you would think everybody has, but there's, there's a lot of hidden introverts in this industry. There's a lot of people who suffer from anxiety and all sorts of stuff. I'm just wondering if, you know, becoming a public personality, when you did if that was easy for you at that time, and how has that changed over time?

Speaker 1  26:07  
I would say it was not easy. I would say, yeah, it was not easy. I would say when things got different and weird was when I started at City TV, because before that, I'd worked at Toronto one which was open for like, one minute and watched only by my parents, like it was a thanks mom and dad appreciate it. That was three years. And before that was CBC, and before that was my internship at CTV city TV had a like, off the chart visibility. It was, it was not a station that I was gunning to work at. I had been trained in news and wanted to, like, stick sort of with the CBC. And then I was being courted for jobs in the States, right? So I thought I was actually going to end up going to ABC News. That's where I got an offer. Oh, wow. But in in between Toronto one shutting down, I had to get a job. So I tried global. They didn't answer me. I tried CTV, they were like, we don't have jobs. And then they went and hired my friend. I tried city TV, they were like, we have a job out west. I was like, Absolutely not. My hair. Remember my hair? And I sent them my tape anyways, and they ended up hiring me. So I was like, Oh, I'm in it. I'll be here for a year, 20 years later. So, but when I got there and I started working at City TV, all of a sudden people knew me. And, I mean, they knew me on the street car, they knew me in the grocery I had the gas station moment, yeah, you know what? I mean, yeah. And so then it's like, what am I doing with my hands? Like, all of a sudden I start to like, Am I acting weird?

Sarah Burke  27:41  
Slippers, out of the house, shit and just like weird

Speaker 1  27:46  
things, like, I'm being perceived. Yeah, you know. And you can feel yourself being perceived. What do I do about that? How do I act? And then you have to start having a reckoning with, who am I? So, who am I outside of their perception, and who am I within their perception? And I found that a lot of things informed that, you know, so Breakfast Television for three years, and then city line, and it was like there were people that had expectations for the way I was supposed to move through that show as a host, and I was supposed to be meaner and I was supposed to be more decisive, and I was supposed to find my bitch pants and put them on, and I was like, Where are my bitch pants? And it wasn't my bosses. It's like, it's other like so many influences, colleagues and colleagues, and so many people, like people on the show. And you know, when you see like a really hot woman, and she's with a man who is not as attractive, and the whole world lets her know that she can do better in that way, I got the message lots of, oh, I don't know, you're in charge. You know, like, if they're acting like that, like you can, okay, you can get them removed. And it's like, oh, I don't know if I want to play with people's livelihood. So there were days when I went home and I'm like, oh, maybe I'm not cut out for this, because I That's not how I lead, you know. Like, I'm just, like, looking for the story, looking for the story, and also like, can we collaborate? Like, what about can we get, like, other ideas? Like, oh, she's younger on staff. Like, let's not shit on her. Let's get her ideas. She's representing a demographic we might not. Yeah, right. Like so I had was questioning myself constantly. I was going home to my my husband constantly and just being like, oh my gosh, like this. They're telling me I should be like this. And do you think I'm making the wrong decision? Am I a pushover? Side note, when did the husband come in? In the career? He came in, he came in when I was at Toronto, one, so 2000

Sarah Burke  29:47  
right before things got weird. Yes, great.

Speaker 1  29:52  
I'm so happy he was there for the before, yeah, so I met him in 2001 okay, and yeah, so he was there. He's been like. A trusted advisor, and, like a bestie and like, just a really good I used to call him my momager. He'd be like, You should charge a million dollars. I'm like, Leo. We're in Canada.

Sarah Burke  30:11  
Try again. Where's Leo from? Is he born in Toronto too.

Speaker 1  30:15  
He's born in Haiti. Okay. He's adopted by French Canadians in shawin. Again, he's from rural Quebec, raised by white people. He's had his own very interesting journey through this world, in this country, but he's like, he's great because he was also a journalist, so we were both CBC reporters. When I asked him out, yeah, I asked him out. He's the only guy ever asked out, still married, gonna be nightly. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I love it, but yeah, it was hard. Fame was weird. I felt like it was weird. And everyone was weird

Sarah Burke  30:51  
about it. And this is, I mean, I haven't even brought up social media. This is before all that was even worse, before it was a thing. So, so maybe you want to touch on social media. And you know, the the last two decades, but also how you're being perceived feels now.

Speaker 1  31:11  
How's it feel now? Okay, so now I feel like I'm mature enough to figure out that I've got to actually detach from that external validation that sounds so easy. It's very hard, but it comes with with age. Yeah, it comes with age. So it's like, oh, like, so I'm not Tracy Moore from city line, and I actually have nothing to prove. So what's the first question everyone's asking me? What do you think everyone's asking me now that I'm What are you doing next? What's next? What's next? What's next? Maybe throwing a snack, a trace at the end, trace what's next, trace what's next. And I get it. It's like, you know, they're actually people, like, especially people from the black community, that actually feel like, very personally affronted by the because I'm not on TV anymore, like that. They were able to see themselves, and it's a big deal to have that taken away. So I understand they're invested. And I don't want to make light of people caring, because it's because they care, yeah. But also I had to remind myself, like, oh shoot, like, I can't go out there trying to prove to people that I'm okay. And I have a gazillion gigs lined up whether I do or don't like I actually have to be okay with saying a little this a little that, yeah, and leaving it at that, like I have to, I'm going through the process of trying not to prove anything anymore.

Sarah Burke  32:30  
And this is in any industry, right, like media or otherwise, where maybe, like, first half of the career is very much like trying to prove yourself, and then second half of the career is like, Nah, I'm good, and this is who I am, and I stand in my power. And I think if I'm picking up on what you've been putting down, it gets easier with age. You just turned 50. You mentioned in January, happy happy 50th. Thank you. I think the termination you were saying came the same week. So that's a, that's a weird,

Unknown Speaker  33:04  
just a weird celebration,

Sarah Burke  33:06  
weird birthday. But, you know, memorable. I'm lucky because I work with women like Jan Arden, so, like, I never really think about aging in a bad way. I think about how much more experience I get every year, how many more, you know, like tools in the kit kind of thing. But yeah, how do you remember, like, first being vulnerable with your audience, whether on social media, on television or or just like in how you talk to your kids? Because I think there's a front we put up for so long before we get to that point.

Speaker 1  33:35  
Yes, it was very much trial and error. And I was an error. I was tiptoeing my way in, and I found that on the show, the first, like 18 months, was just figuring out who the guest experts were. And then it was like, What am I doing? What is grout like, what are these words happening? And then it was sort of, who am I within this show, so I'm hosting the show, but then I am not the person I like, I don't cook. We're doing cooking segments twice a week. Did you say that you didn't cook on TV? Finally, I did. Okay. I was like, and they were like, yes, and you just chop up the audience and blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, I'll tell my husband

Sarah Burke  34:18  
I'm not chopping. Oh, you hear that, yeah. And so

Speaker 1  34:21  
then it started to just sort of like, like, I would like, tip dip my toe into like, how real can I be? And the audience, they responded, yeah. They were sort of, and it's not even because they didn't cook. They were just happy that I was honest about the fact that I didn't, because I think it starts to give people permission to be whatever and whoever they are. So it was like trial and error, and I kept sort of testing it a little bit more. And well, actually, you know, I sleep with my kids. I don't, I can't do the sleep training like I will break out in hives if they're crying in the other room and I'm still sleeping in their bed, and oh my gosh, like just being. Honest, and that sort of emboldened me to be more honest and more honest and more honest, to the point where it's like, Yes, I'm having a hot flash right now. I'm perimenopausal. And it was like, Well, okay, no one else is talking about that. That's great. So yeah,

Sarah Burke  35:12  
you led a lot of those conversations. Yes, like, especially in the Canadian media landscape, I feel like you, you were definitely one of the first to start talking about that stuff in real time. What was the most emotional thing that you have shared publicly before we go menopause? Because I do want to talk about all that stuff too.

Speaker 1  35:32  
Probably my postpartum depression with my after my first baby. That's like a tough one, like so many years later, it still feels kind of raw. I was overwhelmed, and I would not wish that kind of sadness on anyone like one of the things I love about myself, and one of the things I love about my parents is they gave me a really good positivity, default setting. So bad things are happening, and then, and then eventually, like you work through it, and you come right back to actually, we're going to be okay. And I've always had that, and I could not find that switch after I had him, it was just gray. There was no I couldn't stop the tears. I couldn't stop feeling disappointed in myself. I couldn't he wasn't eating enough. I couldn't feed him enough from my breasts. It was like, my sister's going through this right now. Oh, have I made a mistake? I don't think I can do this. And not wanting to eat, there was no solution, you know. And I was not mad at him. I was mad at me, and I didn't want to hurt him. I wanted to leave the house and just like, sit at the bus station, like, just anywhere but here, because I cannot do this. And that was it was tough to talk about that. I didn't want to be like, judged for that. We weren't really talking about that in 2008

Sarah Burke  36:55  
did you bring it to the show or the show? Brought it out of you?

Speaker 1  37:00  
Um, I brought it to the show. I was usually open to talking about that's great, yeah, my life experiences and the things that I've done wrong, the fact that I was terrible financially. I got a credit card my first year in university, a $500 credit limit. We spent it immediately on cheap tank tops at Le Chateau, Chateau. I don't even know if Le Chateau still exists, but then they were calling for the money. I'm like, well, who's paying this bill? I don't have any money. So, like, my money was ridiculous, like I was financially terrible. I talk about all that stuff on the show, just so that people don't feel so bad about it. We're all just figuring

Sarah Burke  37:35  
it out. Yeah, what about the most rewarding experience that you had on any of these shows, because you get to touch a lot of listeners lives. You bring them into the show. Is there a story that stands out as just like something you'll never forget?

Speaker 1  37:53  
There is a story that will stand out as something I'll never forget? I just don't know if it's rewarding? Okay? Well, yeah, this is so this is known like a lifelong relationship now, but it was maybe three seasons ago we decided we want to do something that was bigger, that helped change people's lives, not in a hair and makeup kind of way. And we had something called the Dream Team. So we would put these people, whatever their issue was with, like a therapist, a stylist, a bubble, we'd give them the team based on what they were dealing with. And we found a woman whose son had died by suicide, terribly like terribly deep and serious and uncomfortable, and something that is not talked about on lifestyle television, but going through that story with her and her family members and and like viscerally feeling her pain was something I will never forget, and her and I are still in touch, and we will be in touch forever, because it wasn't like it felt like more than a story That is exactly

Sarah Burke  39:01  
what I meant by, like, a rewarding experience, right? Yeah, that's, that's where you understand, like, the power you have to change one person in that huge audience's life, right? Yeah, so the hot flashes in this, this new this new chapter in life. You've done a lot of talking about body image, especially, which I super appreciated. I grew up in dance competition, okay, like, I don't know, I don't even have to explain, but I do remember, you know, in grade six, sitting there with my lunch box and thinking, Oh, maybe I won't eat this so that my dance outfit feels better later this week, like I still ate. I never ended up, you know, having, but the fact that something made me think that at that young age, right? Yeah, so, so that's where it's like, it's deeply embedded in, in our society, how women are expected to look, expected to feel, expected to act. So, body positivity, um. Like, how did, how did you start sharing some of those things about your body? Because that's, like, extremely personal to do.

Speaker 1  40:06  
It's so personal because, like, bodies are, oh my gosh. There's so much packed into into the whole how we feel about our bodies conversation. I literally do not know one woman who does not have a difficult relationship with her body, or has caused harm to her body, or thinks twice about her body like we're all in it, we're all in it at different stages and phases. And I think that the body conversation for me definitely, after I had my first kid, I was I was not under I just wanted to lose the weight. Yeah, you know what? Let me start it this way. Okay? I was, like, probably a, like, a healthy, happy, no, I wasn't healthy. I was a size 14 during my undergrad because I was smoking pot and drinking and having the time of my fucking life. Like, zero regrets, okay, oh my god, zero regrets, like it just it was not in any way making my life bad. I had boyfriends, I had friends, I was going, I was in the club. You were happy. I was happy. And at the end of that, knowing I was about to go do a journalism masters, I literally, with my strategic Capricorn brain, said, oh, shoot, I need to be skinny. Because they're people on TV are skinny so and it was never about how I felt about my body. It was basically about how I knew society would feel about my body. It was, it was, well, it was like, I need a job, yeah, and so I need to look like the people who are doing that job. And I already knew, I hate to say it, but I'm already black. Yeah, I'm already a woman. So am I going to be a black, fat woman and ask these people for a job? Like, how many things am I going to have against me? And it's sad to have to put it down to that, but like, look at the society we're living in, right? So I went through this like, you know, it was not extreme in the beginning, but I think by the time I was in grad school, I had gone down to a size eight. And then when I started at CBC, Toronto, one down to a size four, and then it was like, starvation, oh my gosh. Like, I'm not supposed to be a size four. Like it was, how do I skip this meal? How do I stay away from food? How do I not be with my family so that they're not going to be judging me for not eating? How do I get into a smaller size? How do I it was and it was working? That's the sad thing. Now, I'm getting magazine covers. I mean, Toronto Star wants to do an interview with me. I'm getting job offers in New York. I have an American agent. Like it was working. So that was even worse. So then I had baby number one, I was like, desperate to lose that weight, and I did. And then I had baby number two, and it was like, Ooh, it's getting a little harder to lose that weight. And then I started looking at it a bit differently. So now I'm like, 35 years old, but had these two babies, I feel the pressure I've been pregnant now twice on air, people have a lot to say about me getting big, so I definitely felt the pressure, but I also felt it was getting hard, and it made me start rethinking, why is it this hard, and how long do I have to do this for? Like, when does ongoing end? How does this end? And I know that the producers and I, we were all women, and we had a lot of conversations about our body off air. So then, when we started pulling it onto the show, yeah, I was happy to be kind of honest about it, like just to say, I like this, but I also struggle with this. Like, I do, I'm, I'm a product of the environment too. Like, of course, I'm going to tell you to love yourself, because I love myself. But also, there are days when I wake up and I'm like, I did not look like this five years ago. You know, I just did a project this week that will come out later on in the fall, and it involved photography. And for the first shots we took, I got in front of the camera, and I always try and take a little peek at the monitor. I peeked at the monitor, and I was like, oh. And it took me a second to reconcile the person I was looking at with who I was, because my body has changed so dramatically, even in the past year, like, gotten bigger still. And so while I'm moving through life, and I'm happy as can be, and I'm looking at the sky and the clouds, I'm walking my dog, and I love my husband and my kids, it's like, every once in a while I get like, that little jolt, like, Oh, you don't look like you used to look. So what does that mean? What do you do with that? Like that? That's the

Sarah Burke  44:45  
pivotal moment where you decide how you react to yourself. How

Speaker 1  44:49  
do you react to yourself, right? Am I going to love me? Am I going to accept it? Is there a health issue? No, yeah. So it does this need to be fixed. Quote, unquote, or do we need to embrace some acceptance

Sarah Burke  45:03  
here? Yeah, I feel like I've even watched you just on socials, like I've seen you sharing workout stuff, fitness stuff, and then, you know, having this conversation with you. Now I'm like, thinking about some of the ways that those things have been framed and even for me, like, I'm a confident person, but I look at my body like, oh, that last time I was here in this space, I looked like this, like the comparing to past versions of yourself and things like that, with what you were talking about, about, like moving and feeling more in the moment a little at the beginning of this conversation, is that fair to say that that's where you're at with your body now too. Like, instead of having to work out, to work out, is it, like, Oh, my energy is, is low today, a workout might help get some energy. Like, where it's, yeah, about those other things

Speaker 1  45:52  
totally. And I would say I've had a very good base of fitness for like, 20 years now, yeah, and I've been doing it because it helped me get out of postpartum depression. So back in 2008 like, it helped me. It helped pull me out. I would go to the park with him every day to try it, like, try to get to sleep, and then go to the park to do some lunges with the stroller. So I've been very dependent on it as a mental health thing. I love it for that, and that has helped, like, for some reason, I like, I never want to skip a workout. I love that too. Yeah? Like, I really, really love it. And I like, even my trainer, sometimes I feel like asking him, like, I do not look like the woman you started training, yeah, a decade ago. Like, not even close. Yeah. Is that weird? Because it's kind of weird for me. But then it's like, no, I'm here. I'm here for therapy, man. Like, this feels good. I'm incredibly strong. You know, I'm raising a Gen Z daughter who's like, wear less clothes. Like, why? Why the tank top over the sports bra? Mom, everyone's just wearing the sports bra on the leggings. Like, oh, 50. Can I wear a top or like, is that okay? But like her, the body positivity that comes so natural to her is so refreshing to me. Oh yeah, and I love it because it's also she's reflecting what we've the information we've been giving her, which is, you're great. You know, you never need to change a thing. They never I don't speak badly about my body, because my body does amazing things for me. So yeah, it is. It's been about the mental health for quite some time. When it comes to fitness, yeah, I have to work

Sarah Burke  47:25  
out for ADHD as well. It's energy. It helps. Oh, my god, yeah. So it helps so much, and it will completely change my day. Yeah, too. Okay, kids, I wanted to talk to you about your kids. Kids. Who are they? So how did you treat being a public profile and explaining to them what you were going to be sharing about your life on TV and just where those lines lines getting crossed? Yeah, I do not share anything about my kids that might embarrass them. Yeah, I don't feel like that's my role. And I feel like I have a very I have a big digital footprint, and they don't need me to,

Speaker 1  48:04  
they don't need me to start making those steps for them, because they now they're teenagers, so they have their own story. They have to approve when I use pictures of them, I like that. Yeah, and you know, if I want to talk about their hockey wins, they've got to look they've got to look at the picture first, Mom, you quit me. Don't use that picture. I'm ugly. Okay, fine. So there's that I would say the biggest mistake I made for with my kids when I first started in the industry was being too guided by external influences when it came to image. So I felt like, not only are we a family of color, we're a television family. So you kids cannot be acting up in public. There's no picking your nose, there's no farting, there's no if you're coming to the studio, the hair has to be on point. You've got to be on your P's and Q's, good manners, very polite. And I feel like I did that a bit too much like they were little soldiers when they were little. Like, it makes me sad thinking of it, yeah, but I was new in the job, and I felt that everything reflected on me, and that shouldn't have been put on their shoulders. So that would be my, that would be my big regret with them. And I tell them about all the time. I'm like, it shouldn't have been, I shouldn't have been so strict with you. Daddy shouldn't have been so strict with you. Like, we were new. We didn't know it was a big job. Like, yeah, you know, there were a lot of people watching like, you know? So I'm like, We're sorry. And they joke about it. They're like, Oh my God, you didn't let us do anything. And I'm like, I'm so sorry, so sorry. Good

Sarah Burke  49:39  
or bad, What's the strangest question that has come from one of your kids? About you? Oh, about me? Because

Speaker 1  49:49  
I had another one. Okay, okay, maybe I should follow that one. Share both, um, I don't know, like strange. I will tell you when my when my. Son was really young. He somebody asked him what his mother did, and he said that people clap at me. And she works out, I was like, I was like, accurate, an audience clapping at me. I do go to the gym every day. So funny. People clap at her, and she works out, like, okay, like, I have

Sarah Burke  50:25  
a show that on the resume. So

Speaker 1  50:28  
funny. It's funny because I thought for most of my career, they were very unimpressed by me and like, I'd want to watch, like, a segment on the show, because it was pre taped, and I'd put it on, and they'd be like, Can we watch cartoons? Yeah, they didn't care, yeah, please turn the channel, like, you're watching yourself again. But when I got when they got older, I think they started to get it, yeah. And we would always be very clear, like, you know, we're at Disney World right now because city line shooting a show, and we're very lucky to be here. And most kids don't go every year, so maybe don't go back to school and tell everybody where you were, like, wow. Like, let's be sensitive about this stuff. And also, like, let's be very grateful that you get to do this. And they were like, Okay, I didn't know if they got it, but I feel like as they got older, they got it. Tell me about how your kids let you know that they're proud of you. They tell me they're very expressive,

Sarah Burke  51:22  
like, even with you announcing, like, that city line was gonna be no longer. Like, I can't even imagine it. Like, you know how your daughter and your son, like, what did they say at dinner?

Speaker 1  51:33  
Yeah, at dinner. Like, I was handling it. I felt pretty well, although I think my husband always gets the worst. He gets the brunt of everything bad when it comes to me, poor guy. But they were sort of like my daughter said, straight up, you're handling this well. And my she's like a small adult, like I feel like she is a tiny adult. And my son didn't say much, but I do remember him saying something along the lines of, yeah, you're, you're gonna be fine. Like there was never any, there was never and there was no fear or panic. There was no Well, what are you now that you're not on that show? Like there was none of that, yeah. And I think it's because I had, I had reached that acceptance phase and then and shared it with them along the way. Yeah, it's like, okay, this is, you know, it's happening and it's okay. And, you know, I started to understand how many people were invested in my career, which was interesting, because my aunts and uncles and parents, and it's like, oh, this was a big deal for you guys too. So like, having to explain to family members was definitely a thing and not take on their disappointment or their rage or their anger, you know. But no, the kids, the kids were good, yeah, yeah, with with the younger

Sarah Burke  52:53  
generation. Like, I'm working with some younger people right now, and I feel like I'm learning from them all the time. And here I am, like, you know, millennial being like, I thought I knew a lot of shit, but I know nothing you know. So is there it sounded like you know you you had a knack for lifting up the younger employees when you know you were working in the team environment. But is there a young person that has kind of taught you some sort of lesson that you've taken with you into this new chapter so

Speaker 1  53:19  
many, yeah, like so many of the younger ones have, and if

Sarah Burke  53:24  
you have any experiences with like mentoring that you want to share, absolutely,

Speaker 1  53:27  
oh my gosh, yeah. Of mentoring is I'm doing it constantly, yeah? So there isn't I had a really bad internship experience.

Sarah Burke  53:36  
That's why you still do it ongoing. Yeah? So

Speaker 1  53:39  
I said, Okay, when the interns come in, I'm going to let them know right away. Hey, I'm Tracy, good to have you here. If you want 10 minutes, like we can chat, just let me know, like you're only here for three months. Make use of book a time for me, with me, and let's sit down and chat. And I am like, ask me anything, if you are in lifestyle, but you want to do sports, I'm gonna introduce you the sports introduce you to sports people. If you are stuck on city line and you want to be in news, I'm going to take you up to the newsroom like, let's use this time wisely. And then outside of that, I've had young women from the other networks like, email me, DM me, like, can we just have a phone conversation? Absolutely. And I think that what we need a lot of help with is navigating the system, sometimes, like negotiating contracts, figuring out what to do about a bad manager, a toxic coworker, you know, being undermined with your pay. That kind of stuff happens a lot, but yeah, lessons from the young people. I feel that, gosh, can I think of one in particular? Because i There were, there were some young women on the show, and I called them the kids, but I respected their, you know, their open. Ness. So I feel like, and I don't know if you're like this, I like women who are like, 20 years older and women who are 20 years younger.

Sarah Burke  55:07  
That actually checks out for me too. Yeah, a lot of older friends, and then, like, a bunch of young people. I'm like, Oh, we're very connected now. Totally Yeah.

Speaker 1  55:14  
And I like from the young people, like my makeup artist near the end of my time at City line. She was so she was so in touch with being who she is, regardless of what the rest of society wanted. You admired it, yeah? That's admirable. And like being a Gen Xer, it's like I still have some of that Boomer tendency to work through pain, yeah, but then also straddling that millennial Gen Z? No, I've had enough so but like, we're in between

Sarah Burke  55:47  
it. Yeah, boundaries are crazy. People, like younger people, have such great boundaries. I'm like, boundaries. I never had that when I was

Speaker 1  55:54  
young. I hid my pregnancy, like when I was pregnant with my second baby, it's like, I need to get my contract signed before I tell anyone I'm pregnant. I was four and a half months gaining weight in weird places, like, I need to sign that contract so that I have another two years on the books. Then I can tell them I'm pregnant. These guys will walk into work and be like, so I'm gonna be pregnant in probably two years, and I'm gonna want 18 months leave, just so, you know, like, oh my god, respect, yeah. And they just say it, right? You say it, yeah, they and they should. You deserve to have a life, yes, you know, why are you trying to kill yourself for a corporation? Yeah, yeah. So I've learned that from the youngies. Did we talk about your new project? No, we have to so here's the thing. I am back at Rogers CO, executive producing a special for them. Don't know when it's going to air. And they said, Make it about anything you want to make it about. And you know what topic I picked? Tell me human connection. Because we have all forgot how to be good to each other. And I think we have all lost the plot. I think that we are so divided. I think that everything is people in camps. I think we can't have conversations without losing family members. I think that we are distrustful of people that we just see on the streets. We think people are trying to scam us. We think someone else wants our parking spot like we are in a bad space. Yeah, the walls are up. The walls are up, and we need to relearn community, because we're looking around and the world is on fire and we're wondering who is going to save us, and it's going to be us, it's going to have to be us, and we're going to have to rely on each other and trust each other. So all of that in an hour. Okay, okay, so, and is there a timeline or not really, not really. Okay, I'm gonna get it done by the end of summer, and then I don't know when it's gonna air. You'll just have

Sarah Burke  57:49  
to keep us posted. It's gonna let you know I wanna open. We threw if you got any questions, yeah, we threw a little chat box up on Instagram to see if anyone wanted to ask Tracy a question. But I always and think about this for a second end this show by saying, Who would you nominate to come on the podcast? Some women that you admire, that you think have great stories to share here. Yeah. And, I mean, your name has come up so many times. I should have a list of who's nominated you. So I'm glad that we it's so sweet. Yeah, there's a lot of people in this industry. Who admire you? Okay, well, I have one if you want a second to look through your who do i Who do I nominate? Yeah, I would, I would love for you to have a conversation with Farah Nasser. Do you know Farah NAS had Farah, yeah, oh, I love that's okay, but you can still tell us why you love

Speaker 1  58:37  
her. I mean, okay, well, I'm gonna say Farah Nasser just because I feel like she like, I love the fact that she's equal parts incredibly smart news woman and goof like she reminds me of myself. I love that, that way we we were both at Toronto, one together, and I'm just such a fan. Have you talked to Arisa Cox? No, okay, well, then she would be my next she's out west. Now, she's basically a rancher. She's living a very different life, and I love this for her, she is so what I learned from Marissa is she's able to go off the grid, and she really doesn't give a shit. She doesn't care about any of the social norms. She takes her three kids and her husband. They've moved probably about, like, four or five times since they got married. They keep going, like, from east coast to west coast to central like, all over the place. They are marching to the beat of their own drum. And I love her for this. But we also met at Toronto one, and she is, she's a bestie. Like, there are very few people in the industry that like, I don't know if you're like this, but we actually talk numbers, okay, like, I got this contract for this much. Do you think this is fair, or I got this contract for this? Do you think I should negotiate this like she knows numbers? I've

Sarah Burke  59:57  
had both experiences where, like, I'm someone who will see. Say, Listen, I want us all to be paid fairly. So I'm going to share this with you, like, I do a lot of that, but there's, there's some people who are visibly uncomfortable with it. When I bring it up, I will say,

Speaker 1  1:00:10  
100% it's very taboo. You talk about bodies being taboo like money, yeah, that's a tough one. And of course, who wins when we're quiet. About it, the companies win right. Title of episode, who wins when we're quiet? Because that sums you up. Wins when we're quiet. Nobody wins. Yeah, not us. Last

Sarah Burke  1:00:31  
question to end, yeah. Your biggest lesson learned in life in media,

Speaker 1  1:00:41  
you really have to hang on tight to who you are, because there are, there is going to be so many people and so many forces that try and just gently nudge you into being something else, and it is pervasive, like you really have to stick you have to know who you are, yeah, So you have so much wounded people in media, like go in as an empty vessel and then get filled up with all the crap. You know what I mean? Like, you kind of have to go in having a sense of, okay, this is who I am. This is what I stand for. I've got some integrity. All we have in this industry is our reputation. That's it. So treat people properly. Don't be a dick. Move through. Move through the move through your jobs, like doing a good job, but also treating people people properly, and know who you are, because if you don't know who you are, you're in

Sarah Burke  1:01:33  
a bit of trouble. Thank you so much for this conversation. It was so

Speaker 1  1:01:37  
great. Great question. Sarah, thank you. I'm sorry it took so long for us to to get together, but that was so fun

Sarah Burke  1:01:43  
and a huge thank you to ADA studios for hosting this conversation during their open house. It's a beautiful space, and I feel too lucky for all the recordings that I have done here. If you want to take a little tour of the space, then check out the link in the show notes for this episode and book some time. Whether you're a podcast or a musician, they do recording. They do mixing. So there's rooms to write songs here and post production. As a matter of fact, they will probably send me these files by the end of the day. Thank you. Ada, bye.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai